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	<title>Comments on: Designer versus Artist</title>
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	<link>http://www.eldergame.com/2007/10/designer-versus-artist/</link>
	<description>MMO game development</description>
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		<title>By: Tzing</title>
		<link>http://www.eldergame.com/2007/10/designer-versus-artist/comment-page-1/#comment-87</link>
		<dc:creator>Tzing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:18:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eldergame.com/2007/10/15/designer-versus-artist/#comment-87</guid>
		<description>Great battle. They were fighting really hard, but everyone left with his own opinion. Just one question - who is the one, who say &quot;That one is the winner&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great battle. They were fighting really hard, but everyone left with his own opinion. Just one question &#8211; who is the one, who say &#8220;That one is the winner&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: Sandra</title>
		<link>http://www.eldergame.com/2007/10/designer-versus-artist/comment-page-1/#comment-45</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 04:07:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eldergame.com/2007/10/15/designer-versus-artist/#comment-45</guid>
		<description>Todd Berkebile said: &quot;The worst day-night cycle mistake you might make, however, is to tie in-game light levels to real-world light levels.&quot; 

I initially thought that this was a terrible mistake in WoW (which does indeed tie the in-game time to real time). But because nighttime light levels in WoW are still generally quite acceptable, I quickly decided that it didn&#039;t *have* to be a terrible mistake. 

But then I started fishing ... and found out that a number of the fishing results tables (what fish you get in different areas) are also tied to the day/night cycle -- which means that I had to set my alarm to get a decent catch of stonescale eel for my alchemy potions. *sigh* 

Of course, day/night content is another topic all together -- and one I know is on our list to talk about at some point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Todd Berkebile said: &#8220;The worst day-night cycle mistake you might make, however, is to tie in-game light levels to real-world light levels.&#8221; </p>
<p>I initially thought that this was a terrible mistake in WoW (which does indeed tie the in-game time to real time). But because nighttime light levels in WoW are still generally quite acceptable, I quickly decided that it didn&#8217;t *have* to be a terrible mistake. </p>
<p>But then I started fishing &#8230; and found out that a number of the fishing results tables (what fish you get in different areas) are also tied to the day/night cycle &#8212; which means that I had to set my alarm to get a decent catch of stonescale eel for my alchemy potions. *sigh* </p>
<p>Of course, day/night content is another topic all together &#8212; and one I know is on our list to talk about at some point.</p>
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		<title>By: Talyn</title>
		<link>http://www.eldergame.com/2007/10/designer-versus-artist/comment-page-1/#comment-44</link>
		<dc:creator>Talyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 04:21:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eldergame.com/2007/10/15/designer-versus-artist/#comment-44</guid>
		<description>I think I&#039;d be in favor of taking a kinda inverse approach: just give me the basics when I create my character, then as I play if I take huge amounts of damage or wounds or &quot;die&quot; a lot, then start putting scars on my face and I&#039;ll have to find some type of advanced healing player or NPC to remove them for a price (quest or currency). If my armor is taking damage, show that too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I&#8217;d be in favor of taking a kinda inverse approach: just give me the basics when I create my character, then as I play if I take huge amounts of damage or wounds or &#8220;die&#8221; a lot, then start putting scars on my face and I&#8217;ll have to find some type of advanced healing player or NPC to remove them for a price (quest or currency). If my armor is taking damage, show that too.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://www.eldergame.com/2007/10/designer-versus-artist/comment-page-1/#comment-43</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Oct 2007 23:22:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eldergame.com/2007/10/15/designer-versus-artist/#comment-43</guid>
		<description>Todd - I remember AC1&#039;s redone nighttime effect; it worked pretty well without being too dark. One side effect was that you got the impression the moon was always bright out, which worked fine in AC where there were multiple moons. 

In general I think you&#039;re right, though: it&#039;s always possible to get good nighttime effects without punishing the player. And you can even avoid the &quot;everything goes purple&quot; WoW effect if you want to...


Koal - True for old-timers, but first time MMO players love those details, and I don&#039;t think we have any evidence to show they&#039;re disappointed about them later on. I&#039;ve watched plenty of new MMO players spend a very long time in character customization. They actually use scars and tattoos to help define the character in their mind and give them a personality, so even though it&#039;s hidden later, the player still knows it&#039;s there.

As I play more and more MMO&#039;s, I find myself caring less about ALL of character-generation. Just get me in the game, already! So if I was making an MMO aimed at veteran MMO players, I&#039;d be okay with skimping on the up-front char-gen options.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Todd &#8211; I remember AC1&#8242;s redone nighttime effect; it worked pretty well without being too dark. One side effect was that you got the impression the moon was always bright out, which worked fine in AC where there were multiple moons. </p>
<p>In general I think you&#8217;re right, though: it&#8217;s always possible to get good nighttime effects without punishing the player. And you can even avoid the &#8220;everything goes purple&#8221; WoW effect if you want to&#8230;</p>
<p>Koal &#8211; True for old-timers, but first time MMO players love those details, and I don&#8217;t think we have any evidence to show they&#8217;re disappointed about them later on. I&#8217;ve watched plenty of new MMO players spend a very long time in character customization. They actually use scars and tattoos to help define the character in their mind and give them a personality, so even though it&#8217;s hidden later, the player still knows it&#8217;s there.</p>
<p>As I play more and more MMO&#8217;s, I find myself caring less about ALL of character-generation. Just get me in the game, already! So if I was making an MMO aimed at veteran MMO players, I&#8217;d be okay with skimping on the up-front char-gen options.</p>
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		<title>By: Brant</title>
		<link>http://www.eldergame.com/2007/10/designer-versus-artist/comment-page-1/#comment-41</link>
		<dc:creator>Brant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2007 22:14:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eldergame.com/2007/10/15/designer-versus-artist/#comment-41</guid>
		<description>A Tale In The Desert uses an interesting trick for its day/night cycle: instead of the world getting darker, it gets a little dimmer but desaturated. The desaturation makes the darkness &lt;i&gt;feel&lt;/i&gt; like nighttime (while keeping the transition between day and night noticeable), without making it impossible to see. I don&#039;t know of any other games that use the technique.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A Tale In The Desert uses an interesting trick for its day/night cycle: instead of the world getting darker, it gets a little dimmer but desaturated. The desaturation makes the darkness <i>feel</i> like nighttime (while keeping the transition between day and night noticeable), without making it impossible to see. I don&#8217;t know of any other games that use the technique.</p>
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		<title>By: Koal</title>
		<link>http://www.eldergame.com/2007/10/designer-versus-artist/comment-page-1/#comment-40</link>
		<dc:creator>Koal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2007 18:50:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eldergame.com/2007/10/15/designer-versus-artist/#comment-40</guid>
		<description>Quoting: but an important special case is the new-character-creation screen. While the player is customizing his avatar, the screen zooms in on the model so minor details are much more noticeable. At this stage, players want subtle touches, not grotesque scars or huge earrings. They’ll just ignore features that look ugly during character-generation. But once they get into the game, these minor details will be nearly invisible. So in the end, you use the exaggerated features for NPCs, and the subtle (and largely unnoticeable) features for player characters.

Except players aren&#039;t stupid.  They see those fancy detail options the first time they make a character and quickly realize that the details they chose are completely invisible.  Those who don&#039;t just skip past all your fancy options then get a little pissed off when they realize they just spent 30 minutes fiddling with sliders and decorations that completely disappear the minute the character actually steps into the game.  So, your team wasted how many man hours developing something that has now caused players aggravation and disappointment and added no value at all to your game?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quoting: but an important special case is the new-character-creation screen. While the player is customizing his avatar, the screen zooms in on the model so minor details are much more noticeable. At this stage, players want subtle touches, not grotesque scars or huge earrings. They’ll just ignore features that look ugly during character-generation. But once they get into the game, these minor details will be nearly invisible. So in the end, you use the exaggerated features for NPCs, and the subtle (and largely unnoticeable) features for player characters.</p>
<p>Except players aren&#8217;t stupid.  They see those fancy detail options the first time they make a character and quickly realize that the details they chose are completely invisible.  Those who don&#8217;t just skip past all your fancy options then get a little pissed off when they realize they just spent 30 minutes fiddling with sliders and decorations that completely disappear the minute the character actually steps into the game.  So, your team wasted how many man hours developing something that has now caused players aggravation and disappointment and added no value at all to your game?</p>
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		<title>By: Todd Berkebile</title>
		<link>http://www.eldergame.com/2007/10/designer-versus-artist/comment-page-1/#comment-39</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd Berkebile</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2007 15:51:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eldergame.com/2007/10/15/designer-versus-artist/#comment-39</guid>
		<description>Night:  When I was on Asheron&#039;s Call I was annoyed with how dark night was.  My solution?  The directional &quot;sun&quot; component was set to &quot;high noon&quot; and weakened slightly from its daytime level and the ambient light component was left at its daytime level.  The sky itself was a dark star field at night and some distant and weak &quot;black fog&quot; made distant hills look dark beyond the range where you could see things like players and monsters.  What surprised me was that night still felt dark even through the near-field vision was rather bright.  I claim you can still get good nighttime ambiance without punishing your player.

Still, I suspect in many cases its the designers crying for darker night.  I&#039;d think the artists would want their art to be visible and its misguided designers who think blackest night makes the game scarier or more dangerous or increases consequences or some other lame excuse for incompetence.

The worst day-night cycle mistake you might make, however, is to tie in-game light levels to real-world light levels.  This means that a casual player that can only play for a few minutes right before bedtime will always be left in the dark.  If your day cycle actually has in-game repercussions (item/monster Foo only spawns at midday/night) that magnifies the problem even more.  In Asheron&#039;s Call we used a seven hour day cycle to ensure players weren&#039;t stuck with one light level.  Any day cycle length that is relatively prime to the 24 hours in a real day will keep things mixed up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Night:  When I was on Asheron&#8217;s Call I was annoyed with how dark night was.  My solution?  The directional &#8220;sun&#8221; component was set to &#8220;high noon&#8221; and weakened slightly from its daytime level and the ambient light component was left at its daytime level.  The sky itself was a dark star field at night and some distant and weak &#8220;black fog&#8221; made distant hills look dark beyond the range where you could see things like players and monsters.  What surprised me was that night still felt dark even through the near-field vision was rather bright.  I claim you can still get good nighttime ambiance without punishing your player.</p>
<p>Still, I suspect in many cases its the designers crying for darker night.  I&#8217;d think the artists would want their art to be visible and its misguided designers who think blackest night makes the game scarier or more dangerous or increases consequences or some other lame excuse for incompetence.</p>
<p>The worst day-night cycle mistake you might make, however, is to tie in-game light levels to real-world light levels.  This means that a casual player that can only play for a few minutes right before bedtime will always be left in the dark.  If your day cycle actually has in-game repercussions (item/monster Foo only spawns at midday/night) that magnifies the problem even more.  In Asheron&#8217;s Call we used a seven hour day cycle to ensure players weren&#8217;t stuck with one light level.  Any day cycle length that is relatively prime to the 24 hours in a real day will keep things mixed up.</p>
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		<title>By: Talyn</title>
		<link>http://www.eldergame.com/2007/10/designer-versus-artist/comment-page-1/#comment-37</link>
		<dc:creator>Talyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2007 15:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eldergame.com/2007/10/15/designer-versus-artist/#comment-37</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll wholeheartedly agree with just about all of these.

Night: I actually didn&#039;t care for WoW&#039;s night because it was nearly as bright as day, only the sky color was different and a bright blue sky would light up my office but I could see equally in both. In Vanguard, dark is dark. Damn dark. Very damn dark. Not to mention it seems like they programmed the cycle to be 30 minutes of day and 3 hours of night.

Dyes: Yes, please! We do like to feel like we&#039;re individuals. Even if our neon pink and green armor looks utterly ridiculous and causes irreparable damage to the viewer&#039;s eyes, at least we have that avenue of self-expression.

Scars: meh... I actually just created my first character ever who has scars. One of the many reasons I&#039;d never done this before is quite simple: within 5 levels, I&#039;ll have enough new armor, etc. from the noob quests to cover up everything I did in the game&#039;s &quot;advanced&quot; character generation, so why bother? If the designers aren&#039;t going to let the artist&#039;s work be seen and appreciated anyway, then the artist&#039;s time is better spent elsewhere.

Repetitive textures: Cornfields I can live with, though I&#039;d certainly appreciate a few different varieties of the cornfields interspersed within each other to make it feel more real. But for cryin&#039; out loud, make enough textures to make the overall world look organic. Again Vanguard is a good example of abusing texture repetition; though I&#039;ll give them free brownie points since the game wasn&#039;t actually ready for release. We&#039;ll see if they go back and re-texture the world as they progress though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll wholeheartedly agree with just about all of these.</p>
<p>Night: I actually didn&#8217;t care for WoW&#8217;s night because it was nearly as bright as day, only the sky color was different and a bright blue sky would light up my office but I could see equally in both. In Vanguard, dark is dark. Damn dark. Very damn dark. Not to mention it seems like they programmed the cycle to be 30 minutes of day and 3 hours of night.</p>
<p>Dyes: Yes, please! We do like to feel like we&#8217;re individuals. Even if our neon pink and green armor looks utterly ridiculous and causes irreparable damage to the viewer&#8217;s eyes, at least we have that avenue of self-expression.</p>
<p>Scars: meh&#8230; I actually just created my first character ever who has scars. One of the many reasons I&#8217;d never done this before is quite simple: within 5 levels, I&#8217;ll have enough new armor, etc. from the noob quests to cover up everything I did in the game&#8217;s &#8220;advanced&#8221; character generation, so why bother? If the designers aren&#8217;t going to let the artist&#8217;s work be seen and appreciated anyway, then the artist&#8217;s time is better spent elsewhere.</p>
<p>Repetitive textures: Cornfields I can live with, though I&#8217;d certainly appreciate a few different varieties of the cornfields interspersed within each other to make it feel more real. But for cryin&#8217; out loud, make enough textures to make the overall world look organic. Again Vanguard is a good example of abusing texture repetition; though I&#8217;ll give them free brownie points since the game wasn&#8217;t actually ready for release. We&#8217;ll see if they go back and re-texture the world as they progress though.</p>
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