Pouring explosives on the STO fire…
The folks on various Star Trek fansites are not pleased with my previous post, and I can’t say I’m surprised. :)
Sorry guys. Here’s the bad news:
- MMO’s are incredibly hard to make, much harder than you think. Perpetual didn’t spend thousands of man-months and fail because they’re total retards. It’s really really hard to make an MMO.
- Star Trek is extra super hard. I know nobody believes these things, and I’m okay with taking the heat for that, but it’s true.
- The developers should stay away from the fan sites early on because you guys are not fans of the upcoming Star Trek MMO. You are fans of the Star Trek MMO you each see in your heads. In 18 months, when there’s a game to actually be a fan of, then you can add to the discussion meaningfully. In the meantime, you’re just trying to inject random features into an already impossibly-complex game.
- You also are just not a good representative sample of Star Trek fans. There’s no good way to say that, and I know how insulting it sounds, but… your voice does not represent Star Trek fandom.
- Perpetual did do a fair amount of research. Real research, not internet polls. And remember how they suddenly went extra-casual? Did you suppose they suddenly lost their minds? No. Research. There’s a whole lot more Star Trek fans who are older and can only play for 20-30 minutes at a time, or who aren’t gamers and can’t deal with realistic space physics or the tedium of exploring space for 6 hours on a manned crew.
- Research shows that it would be financial suicide to make a fast-paced action game, or a realistic space game, as a AAA Star Trek MMO. There’s not a big enough fan base to support it.
- You don’t believe that last statement to be true, and that is why the devs need to ignore you for a while!
- Interacting with the fan base comes at a price. Feeding the fan PR “beast” takes a lot of time and effort, and ultimately slows down development. I think STO started building its fanbase up about a year too early, and it hurt our productivity and strained the fans. I don’t want to see that same mistake made again.
Guys, I don’t really want to play a WoW-esque Star Trek MMO either. I want to play a game where I’m Picard-esque (I even look kinda like him… well, I’m bald anyway!) and I talk my way out of problems, and I have adventures every hour on the hour. But the game I want to play costs about $600 million to make. It’s like WoW plus EVE Online plus a few dozen adventure games worth of really deep and clever content.
It’s not going to happen.
I will settle for an MMO where I can do Starfleet-esque things, where I can explore brave new worlds, and where I can see the cool places I’ve always wanted to explore. I will settle for a WoW clone with Star Trek theming. I will buy it, and if it’s decent I might even stick with it while they get the next chunk of the game done as an expansion, and then the next, and then the next.
And here’s the thing: so will you. If you’re a big enough Star Trek and MMO fan that you’ve been following this game from way back when, I already know that you will settle for this approach, because I can completely empathize. You sure won’t like it, but it’ll work.
In the mean time, the devs will be able to pick up some of the WoW player crowd, and some of the casual gamer crowd too. There’s lots of latent Star Trek fans in their 40s who would love to play occasionally, maybe a few hours a week. But it’s got to be really accessible for them to be able to play.
A few other misunderstandings I wanted to correct:
- They should absolutely listen to their core audience. It’s just that the few thousand folks on Star Trek fan sites are not a big enough core audience to be worth spending this much money on.
- I love Star Trek, and it gets really old to hear “has he even seen such-and-such?” Of course I’ve seen it. Hell, I bet I can out-Trek-trivia most of you! That’s a challenge, and I’d love to have a trivia duel if we meet up at a con or something. But the thing is, I realize that I’m in the incredibly tiny minority of people who know, say, how many symbionts are released per year from Trill.
- If I had infinite money, I would make a very different game. But I don’t, and neither does Cryptic.
January 17th, 2008 at 7:58 pm
What core audience does a Star Trek game actually target, if not people, who liked to watch Star Trek?
January 17th, 2008 at 8:26 pm
What core audience does a Star Trek game actually target, if not people, who liked to watch Star Trek?
Probably people that play games. Just targeting Star Trek fans is probably not enough if the game does not please actual gamers.
Pleasing both Star Trek fans & MMO players is probably something really hard to achieve. In fact, I’m pretty sure there’s quite some ST fans that are happy that STO failed, which is quite sad.
January 17th, 2008 at 8:51 pm
“Just targeting Star Trek fans is probably not enough if the game does not please actual gamers.”
Okay, so you mean Star Trek fans as Eric is one, are no gamers? And the gamers love to play WoW-like games and just must to have their loot, even if this is contradiction with the IP, that the developers payed money for, to ignore it, and that its targeting audience are not fans of.
Does that make sense? I really would love to see the research, that makes that concept valid.
January 17th, 2008 at 9:27 pm
Okay, so you mean Star Trek fans as Eric is one, are no gamers?
Let’s not go that way. Let’s just call it bad wording on my part…
I’m just saying that fans are probably looking for specific things that the general crowd might just not appreciate and that by trying to please the general crowd might end up not pleasing the fans.
If both can be pleased than great, but so far… In the end, your guess is as good as mine, that’s just how I see it.
January 17th, 2008 at 11:57 pm
Game developers just don’t get it so let me explain something. Making games for the WoW player base is just flawed logic. The majority of WoW players detest MMOs. They are not MMO fans, they are Blizzard and Warcraft fans. These people will most likely never play another MMO because in their minds they are not playing a MMO, they are playing multi-player Warcraft. You’d think after a dozen or so failed WoW-Clone MMO’s over the last 3 years they’d see this but they just don’t. Making a game accessible to the casual gamer does not have to equal WoW-Clone. Use some imagination and come up with something new for a change instead of getting on the “lets just re-skin WoW” bandwagon. The MMO industry has been in a rut for the last 3 years because of this. STO could very easily be the one that breaks this trend but only if they show some initiative and make something truly new.
January 18th, 2008 at 12:11 am
“And here’s the thing: so will you. If you’re a big enough Star Trek and MMO fan that you’ve been following this game from way back when, I already know that you will settle for this approach, because I can completely empathize. You sure won’t like it, but it’ll work.”
Really? I sure don’t know about that. There’s a whole lot of assuming going on there.
I also think that assuming profitability just because a game launches is a pretty big mistake. I know that’s not exactly what you’re saying, but when you keep saying things like “We HAVE to make a shitty MMO to get it out the door!”, you’re coming awfully close. What use is getting the game out the door if it’s confused, schizophrenic and intrinsically mediocre (or worse)?
If you can’t think of something that both a) makes sense and b) fits within your budget, you need to take a big step back and do some more thinking. There are more options than “Diku” and “Impossible” when making design decisions about MMOs.
As far as pleasing both gamers and Star Trek fans, I think you go about things all wrong when you try to target gamers first. By targeting gamers, what you really mean is “giving them something they’ve had before and seemed to like”. Designing the game loop first, and such. That’s how you’ve ended up with some many crappy Star Trek games in the past. Why not just make a Star Trek Tetris game? Because it’s not Star Trek. It doesn’t make any sense. It’ll be a novelty to Trek fans and nothing else. A serious portion of “Gamers” are going to be turned off by Star Trek being in the title, anyway. Not to mention that they can go play any other (bigger budget) MMO for the same (or better) gameplay.
So no, I think listening to the fans is incredibly important. There’s just a difference between fans who don’t know anything about MMOs and those who do.
And apologies to Eric if you’re already getting jumped on over this. I haven’t really followed the STO thing, and I can rarely be bothered to read 20 drama-filled replies to a blog post. Hell, I didn’t read the original Star Trek Online post on this blog when I actually meant to. So I admit that I might be behind a bit here, and I CERTAINLY don’t want to seem like I’m rubbing anything anywhere or attacking anyone whatsoever.
In other words, I really like this blog and don’t kick me out please.
January 18th, 2008 at 8:27 am
[...] Since I wrote this, Eric has gone on to elaborate his opinions. And it doesn’t change my opinions at all. This entry was written by jason, posted on [...]
January 18th, 2008 at 11:48 am
You’re right Eric, absolutely. The Landscape of ‘fandom’ that has been following STO in the last couple of years is sure pathetic, whether it’s the trashy trolls that hang out on MMORPG.com ironically hating on every single aspect of game development which makes a game an MMO or the big ideas of the optimists at STO.net. The problem is hardcore Trekkies (I mean, who else is following a Trek MMO years off release?) with their own personal canons, their own personal visions and their own idea of what is right and what is not, and it’s a minefield. They’re one of the most close minded and rabid groups out there and no game is ever going to play to them all.
I too, implore the new studio to just announce they have the license, then close the doors and get on with it, come back when the game is ready to be shown off and those final tweaks can be made when REAL feedback to a REAL, existing product can be made.
What makes me laugh the most is kids in their bedrooms coming here and telling you that you, and other game developers, people who work in the industry and know what it takes to create a successful product, that you are wrong and they are right. I love hearing what you have to say, so please keep it coming.
A fan.
January 18th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
Sorry Mr. Heimburg ,
but your are talking nonsense
1.
pirates of the burning sea goes in this very moment another way than WoW.
because you can´t find a trek-solution for this mmog-problems doesn´t mean there is no other way as WoW.
2.
we done also a little research. can you please tell us how many mmog do you have finished successful ? And it´s true that you don´t even work on STO until last day ?
it´s strikes me that you wrote this two post´s for your own effort and not to generously inform us about the real cause of this tragedy
i know how insulting it sounds, but , there’s no good way to say that…
keep out of our trek
best regards
cicero
January 18th, 2008 at 11:40 pm
Okay, that post made me go back and read the comments on the previous blog entry.
Yeah I’ll just go ahead and apologize immediately for adding to it.
January 19th, 2008 at 12:51 am
You hit the nail on the head with this article.
As to who you’re target audience for a Star Trek MMO should be: I have seen every minute of every Star Trek episode and movie (well, except for the animated series). I’ve only watched Enterprise once but beyond that I’ve seen the rest multiple times. I enjoy Star Trek and I like the universe its set in, that’s part of why I joined the Star Trek Online development team way back in the day. Despite this I can’t tell you how many fingers Scotty has, how many symbionts a Trill releases, or even the names of many of the bridge characters. Shoot, I can’t even think of the name of Voyager’s captain right now. I do know what it feels like to mind meld with a horta, but that’s the limit of my Star Trek geek-cred. I just don’t care about details like that. To a real Star Trek fan who hangs out on Internet fan sites I’m not even worth talking too. And yet I am WAY more of a “fan boy” than what you should expect from the average player. To get a large enough audience you need to target people who have maybe seen a few episodes of the original series and perhaps watched some reruns of Next Generation. Maybe they saw one or two of the movies (hopefully some of the even numbered ones). At best they might be able to name two captains of the Enterprise but even that is a stretch. They enjoyed what they saw and recognize Star Trek as a “name brand”. They like playing games and have either played other MMOs before or at least considered playing them. They see a Star Trek game is coming out so they buy a copy figuring it should have good production values. Short version, I know almost nothing about Star Trek yet even I am way too much of a fan boy to be the target audience.
As for innovating, young people never seem to realize how truly difficult it is to be genuinely innovative. If being innovative was truly as easy as simply having a bunch of ideas bouncing around inside your head than pretty much all entertainment from books to movies and from TV to MMOs would be a lot better than it is. If you have the ability to turn your ideas directly into finished product they you will be rich and successful beyonds any one’s wildest dreams and I am insanely jealous of your talents. Until you’ve developed an MMO (or any large-scale cross-discipline creative work) you can never truly appreciate how hard innovating is.
That being said, there is a lesser form of innovation which I prefer to call originality that is relatively easy to obtain. Originality could be as simple as remaking WoW in space and calling it Starcraft Online. There are also minor incremental evolutions to existing ideas which you could certainly choose to call innovative; for example you might take EQ1, mix in some AC1, add a dash or two of CoH, target a more casual audience and call it WoW. I would argue that these sorts of “innovation” are not enough to satisfy the fans desires for the perfect STO.
January 19th, 2008 at 2:39 am
Eric, have you had by chance to take a look or review a MMO called Starquest Online?
The graphics are 2.5D and look dated, but it has depth. A “Picard-esque” type game as you describe can be done and for much less. By referencing your last entry, which to add on it, build a core system and then expand it over time.
January 19th, 2008 at 12:58 pm
Ah, the day when game developers working on touchy franchises and fans of touchy franchises can communicate without any misunderstanding at all will be a happy one indeed, I’m sure. But hey, I suppose it’s pretty easy to forget the realities of a situation when you’re so involved in it, and for that I envy you Eric: being a fan of something like Star Trek while also having to consider how it’ll work realistically in a game, especially a game which already has a bad reputation for various things (like, controvertially, grinding), most certainly isn’t an easy thing and alot of people forget that. Obviously I don’t agree with everything you’ve said, but that’s a good thing (if everybody agreed, nothing would improve, would it?), and I still think you’ve made a lot of good points despite what I may think.
And Todd, I don’t think “young people” is necessarily the correct term, per se (I’ve understood the limitations of innovation and revolution in game design since I was maybe…16 or 17 at a guess, I can’t be entirely sure, but I’ve only just turned 20 recently so I probably still fall into the “young” category). Younger people may like to dream a little more about what can be done, but “inexperienced” is probably a more accurate term to use, especially when big name franchises like Star Trek are involved. Alot of fans aren’t going to be burying themselves in game industry knowledge frequently - they don’t care about that, they care about the dreams, the experiences, and the feelings they’ve had when watching the shows or playing past Trek games. Coupled with the fact that quite a number of people watching “more than the humanly possible” are coming into the higher age ranges (30, 40, 50), it can probably be argued that it’s the misunderstandings of what creating games is all about that causes friction.
I’m pretty sure throwing explosives on a fire doesn’t help that of course, Eric :p lol. But it’s fun to watch in that cynical way nobody gets when it’s about them. It’s just a shame so many people don’t realise they’re being so cruel and bitey about something that’s ultimately…kind of trivial I guess. I’m not even that much of a fan of Star Trek (I probably fall somewhere in the category with Todd - limited knowledge, but overall enjoyed it as a show), yet I keep wondering where all the ethics went. I’m pretty sure the whole of TNG was about being nice to each other…
January 20th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
Great post, Eric.
Fans (from the word fanatic, lest we forget) are too emotionally attached to be objective about anything - games, TV shows, musicians, spaghetti. Just build me an enjoyable game that happens to have a Star Trek-themed veneer. If I run into Captain Kirk once in a blue moon, how quaint! But his mere presence won’t make it a better game.
And if anyone builds it to work like WoW I will hunt them down and hurt them.
January 21st, 2008 at 6:11 pm
ok, what makes a game an MMO???
maybe theres a large group of people out there that want a different style of MMO. the 8,000+ ST:O fans out there want it. and I’m sure there are lots of people looking for MMO land/space game play that doesn’t revolve around loot and leveling. in fact I’m sure of it, and game developers haven’t taken the time to be creative and come up with something new.
makeing a game for the WoW audience is stupid. people who like WoW will play WoW, but there are other possibilities. since when did WoW become the only way to make an MMO, thats like saying golden eye is the only way to make a first person shooter. or need for speed the only way to make a racing game. or madden the only way to make a football game (which NFL blitz proved wrong)
the MMO indistry is still in its infancy and to say that there is only one way to make a sicessfull MMO is just plain stuped and short sighted. the real companys make new original games, and thats where real sucess comes from.
why was grand theft auto so sucessfull, because it was the first game with game play like that, it was creative and innovative, same with WoW and EVE, new and and innovative.
and for any MMO to become wildly sucessful its going to need to step away from the past, and off the paved path, and blaze there own trail. make a game like no other, make it fun to play, make it true to trek lore and the universe. and it will be wildly sucessfull.
make a game based off of WoW, with a trek skins. MMO fans will play it and say “this is just like WoW, and I’ve already invested a lot in WoW, I think I’ll just keep that account and play expansions some more untill something truely new comes out. and the Trek fans will say “this isn’t star trek, its WoW in space with trek uniforms”
make a game unique fun and true to trek you get MMO fans saying “WOW look at this new game, theres nothing like it and its fun!! I wanna see what this is all about, and am looking forword to what this game is all about and enjoying this new expirience” and trek fans saying “finaly a game that does justice to trek instead of all those half asses crappy trek games of the past!!!”
and this developer over night becomes the next blizzard
January 21st, 2008 at 6:35 pm
[...] Eric defends the design decisions made by Perpetual (which he, himself, was at one point a part of) by [...]
January 21st, 2008 at 10:34 pm
Anyone that is going to take time to first buy the client and bother learning ,then playing the game is likely going to be both a fan of Star Trek AND mmorpg’s.The next two groups to check the game out will be fans of either or but not necessarily both genres of fandom.People who are not gamers or Trek fans are not going to bother with a game that they will have little to no interest in playing, nm spending 50+ on the client(box), i don’t care what kind of Trek game is made or how they package it.
ANY developer that ends up good and brave enough to contine and follow through with the Trek mmo license if going to have to 1.Find a sane bunch of ADULT Trek fans that are also gamers, but also have full time jobs,families.cats,cars, and most of all LIVES.Those are the people that will be able to give very valuable input to the potential developers of a Trek mmo, not the 24/7 power gamers,die-hard-rabbid-”canon cannot be screwed with, EVER!” Trek nut,and definitely not the 10-17 year of age FPS teen-child,whose vocabulary consists of cuss words,insults, and little else.
A GREAT Trek mmo CAN be made, but it’s going to have to have a tight focus, at least in the beginning and based on it’s success, have the ability to branch out into bigger directions.If the new developers bite off more than they can chew at once(like i think Perpetual likely did), then they’ll likely end up choking(again,very much like Perpetual did)and losing the reigns on the develpment.Whoever does end up in charge of the new Trek MMO team should also be someone that is already well versed in things Trek.Trying to take a 40 year crash course in Trek history and then lead a large team straight into the development of a game based on that crash course(to be blunt and simple)AIN’T GONNA WORK.
January 23rd, 2008 at 12:43 am
I found most developers are short sighted. Why look within your horizon where you can look beyond. Once you start comparing with other MMO, you limit your own creativity on the game you making.
January 25th, 2008 at 11:11 am
“Once you start comparing with other MMO, you limit your own creativity”
Because if you compare yourself to other successes in the same medium, you’ll end up with some crappy idea like “Wagon Train To The Stars” that’s just doomed to failure.