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	<title>Comments on: Designing a Level System</title>
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	<link>http://www.eldergame.com/2008/10/designing-a-level-system/</link>
	<description>MMO game development</description>
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		<title>By: gattsuru</title>
		<link>http://www.eldergame.com/2008/10/designing-a-level-system/comment-page-1/#comment-13506</link>
		<dc:creator>gattsuru</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 02:09:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eldergame.com/?p=132#comment-13506</guid>
		<description>Another alternative is to have levels mean extremely little or nothing.  Early after &lt;i&gt;City Of Heroes&lt;/i&gt; released, levels 40-50 in themselves didn&#039;t really add much; there were no new powers other than stocking up on the largely useless pool powers, and sidekicking meant that a player from level 40 could help in a level 50 mission with ease.  In S4 League, levels offer little more than a token amount of currency and access to flashy but entirely aesthetic clothing choices.  The levels exist in order to warn other players of your personal experience.  Because a level 1 player has 5 hours worth of use of every weapon type, they&#039;re often better equipped than a player who&#039;s been around for a while.

This works for S4 League because, while the player character starts with every weapon and ability, the player himself or herself needs time to develop his or her understand of the game&#039;s mechanics, and other players and areas start to generate new concepts and challenges on their own.  It&#039;s still an RPG, with stats, levels, equipment, and areas reached based on level, but the levels themselves don&#039;t do much.

I&#039;ve not seen many other games try that.  I&#039;d be interest, though; from S4 League and Phantom Dust, it seems like a good opportunity to keep the interest of both hardcore and tween players, and move rewards closer to the gameplay itself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another alternative is to have levels mean extremely little or nothing.  Early after <i>City Of Heroes</i> released, levels 40-50 in themselves didn&#8217;t really add much; there were no new powers other than stocking up on the largely useless pool powers, and sidekicking meant that a player from level 40 could help in a level 50 mission with ease.  In S4 League, levels offer little more than a token amount of currency and access to flashy but entirely aesthetic clothing choices.  The levels exist in order to warn other players of your personal experience.  Because a level 1 player has 5 hours worth of use of every weapon type, they&#8217;re often better equipped than a player who&#8217;s been around for a while.</p>
<p>This works for S4 League because, while the player character starts with every weapon and ability, the player himself or herself needs time to develop his or her understand of the game&#8217;s mechanics, and other players and areas start to generate new concepts and challenges on their own.  It&#8217;s still an RPG, with stats, levels, equipment, and areas reached based on level, but the levels themselves don&#8217;t do much.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve not seen many other games try that.  I&#8217;d be interest, though; from S4 League and Phantom Dust, it seems like a good opportunity to keep the interest of both hardcore and tween players, and move rewards closer to the gameplay itself.</p>
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		<title>By: Django</title>
		<link>http://www.eldergame.com/2008/10/designing-a-level-system/comment-page-1/#comment-12500</link>
		<dc:creator>Django</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 16:38:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eldergame.com/?p=132#comment-12500</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s definitely a fact that most player want to feel a noticeable increase on leveling (new skills is of course the easy way to do this) but recently I&#039;ve been somewhat put off by the number of &#039;things&#039; that MMOs feel a need to include. When I&#039;m playing just about any MMO now I find that I have 3+ skill bars full of &#039;things&#039; (skills, gear, potions, etc.). Do we think this is really necessary? 

Limiting the choices to a lower number to reduce complexity and screen usage will simply cause the general FotM (players only use the &#039;good&#039; ones). 
Removing the choices completely, or just mostly, is going to take that simple &#039;POP!&#039; out of leveling.

I figure part of this comes down to if &#039;things&#039; hit the widest targetable audience and that&#039;s the intended plan or if something I&#039;d consider a more elegant solution would be capable of capturing the same audience. (We could just be dealing with needing a smaller scope on your target audience, but I haven&#039;t played a major MMO release in a while that wasn&#039;t trying to target everyone possible)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s definitely a fact that most player want to feel a noticeable increase on leveling (new skills is of course the easy way to do this) but recently I&#8217;ve been somewhat put off by the number of &#8216;things&#8217; that MMOs feel a need to include. When I&#8217;m playing just about any MMO now I find that I have 3+ skill bars full of &#8216;things&#8217; (skills, gear, potions, etc.). Do we think this is really necessary? </p>
<p>Limiting the choices to a lower number to reduce complexity and screen usage will simply cause the general FotM (players only use the &#8216;good&#8217; ones).<br />
Removing the choices completely, or just mostly, is going to take that simple &#8216;POP!&#8217; out of leveling.</p>
<p>I figure part of this comes down to if &#8216;things&#8217; hit the widest targetable audience and that&#8217;s the intended plan or if something I&#8217;d consider a more elegant solution would be capable of capturing the same audience. (We could just be dealing with needing a smaller scope on your target audience, but I haven&#8217;t played a major MMO release in a while that wasn&#8217;t trying to target everyone possible)</p>
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		<title>By: Tesh</title>
		<link>http://www.eldergame.com/2008/10/designing-a-level-system/comment-page-1/#comment-12170</link>
		<dc:creator>Tesh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 19:00:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eldergame.com/?p=132#comment-12170</guid>
		<description>True, Eric.  There&#039;s also the whole &quot;Limited vs. Constructed&quot; difference in MTG, where the audiences overlap in places, but there are definite fans of one or the other.  It actually almost reminds me of the &quot;Guild Wars vs. WoW&quot; game play argument.  There&#039;s more breadth in GW, and the &quot;character build&quot; mechanic certainly feels like a Limited event... and the audiences are different between GW and WoW.  To my mind, GW and MTG (Limited) are more skill based, where WoW and MTG (Constructed) are more about time and investment.  There&#039;s certainly skill involved, but with the WoW game largely based on &quot;the game starts at 70&quot;, with concurrent itemization and content focus, there&#039;s definitely a huge time investment being made.  Contrast that with GW&#039;s &quot;instant level cap&quot; PvP characters.  The playstyles are definitely different, and will cater to different audiences.  I&#039;ll admit, I tend to lean heavily to skill testing games, partly because I have a &quot;Casual&quot; player&#039;s tight time constraints, but a &quot;Hardcore&quot; player&#039;s interest in skill and design.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>True, Eric.  There&#8217;s also the whole &#8220;Limited vs. Constructed&#8221; difference in MTG, where the audiences overlap in places, but there are definite fans of one or the other.  It actually almost reminds me of the &#8220;Guild Wars vs. WoW&#8221; game play argument.  There&#8217;s more breadth in GW, and the &#8220;character build&#8221; mechanic certainly feels like a Limited event&#8230; and the audiences are different between GW and WoW.  To my mind, GW and MTG (Limited) are more skill based, where WoW and MTG (Constructed) are more about time and investment.  There&#8217;s certainly skill involved, but with the WoW game largely based on &#8220;the game starts at 70&#8243;, with concurrent itemization and content focus, there&#8217;s definitely a huge time investment being made.  Contrast that with GW&#8217;s &#8220;instant level cap&#8221; PvP characters.  The playstyles are definitely different, and will cater to different audiences.  I&#8217;ll admit, I tend to lean heavily to skill testing games, partly because I have a &#8220;Casual&#8221; player&#8217;s tight time constraints, but a &#8220;Hardcore&#8221; player&#8217;s interest in skill and design.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://www.eldergame.com/2008/10/designing-a-level-system/comment-page-1/#comment-11865</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2008 10:37:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eldergame.com/?p=132#comment-11865</guid>
		<description>Babs - Interesting point. I guess here using some extra breadth can really simplify hitting more audiences; if 20 of your 100 skills are useful in raids, but 20 more are useful in PvP and 20 more are useful when crafting, you&#039;re getting somewhere. But as I just pontificated above, that probably means fewer people will be willing/able to learn your game.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Babs &#8211; Interesting point. I guess here using some extra breadth can really simplify hitting more audiences; if 20 of your 100 skills are useful in raids, but 20 more are useful in PvP and 20 more are useful when crafting, you&#8217;re getting somewhere. But as I just pontificated above, that probably means fewer people will be willing/able to learn your game.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://www.eldergame.com/2008/10/designing-a-level-system/comment-page-1/#comment-11864</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2008 10:34:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eldergame.com/?p=132#comment-11864</guid>
		<description>Tesh - I think having a lot of breadth is a good idea for a lot of games. But it can definitely change your target audience. Think of the breadth of knowledge you need to be competitive in WoW versus the breadth you need in Magic. The difference is phenomenal. This keeps M:TG from picking up the same audience as WoW. I think in the end it depends on who you&#039;re aiming for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tesh &#8211; I think having a lot of breadth is a good idea for a lot of games. But it can definitely change your target audience. Think of the breadth of knowledge you need to be competitive in WoW versus the breadth you need in Magic. The difference is phenomenal. This keeps M:TG from picking up the same audience as WoW. I think in the end it depends on who you&#8217;re aiming for.</p>
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		<title>By: Babs</title>
		<link>http://www.eldergame.com/2008/10/designing-a-level-system/comment-page-1/#comment-11854</link>
		<dc:creator>Babs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2008 04:51:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eldergame.com/?p=132#comment-11854</guid>
		<description>One way or another, players will be defined by levels of something mainly because living things like to define their universe.  We&#039;re list makers at our primal cores - this is dangerous, that is not; this is better, that is worse.  So you&#039;re right, Eric, we&#039;ll either define ourselves by actual level advances or by steadily advancing gear/abilities.

What I&#039;m observing these days more so than in the past is that online games are increasingly clique oriented.  They&#039;re becoming hugely guild-based, or raid-based, or at the very least something less than universally social - unless you&#039;re talking about tween/teen games.  You get in, get your feet under you, join a group of like-minded individuals (if you didn&#039;t already subscribe with your guild) and have at it.  Interplay between these cliques occurs closer to the end-game (forming raids/alliances) rather than at the beginning (the classic RPG dynamic).  How to make leveling matter for individuals vs. individuals in the same manner that it matters for groups vs. groups is a challenge.  Most of the games out there have, say, 50-100 options per class, of which only 10-20 are really used because groups are less about playing the MMO than beating it.  I think that changes how devs should think about levels in general, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One way or another, players will be defined by levels of something mainly because living things like to define their universe.  We&#8217;re list makers at our primal cores &#8211; this is dangerous, that is not; this is better, that is worse.  So you&#8217;re right, Eric, we&#8217;ll either define ourselves by actual level advances or by steadily advancing gear/abilities.</p>
<p>What I&#8217;m observing these days more so than in the past is that online games are increasingly clique oriented.  They&#8217;re becoming hugely guild-based, or raid-based, or at the very least something less than universally social &#8211; unless you&#8217;re talking about tween/teen games.  You get in, get your feet under you, join a group of like-minded individuals (if you didn&#8217;t already subscribe with your guild) and have at it.  Interplay between these cliques occurs closer to the end-game (forming raids/alliances) rather than at the beginning (the classic RPG dynamic).  How to make leveling matter for individuals vs. individuals in the same manner that it matters for groups vs. groups is a challenge.  Most of the games out there have, say, 50-100 options per class, of which only 10-20 are really used because groups are less about playing the MMO than beating it.  I think that changes how devs should think about levels in general, too.</p>
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		<title>By: Tesh</title>
		<link>http://www.eldergame.com/2008/10/designing-a-level-system/comment-page-1/#comment-11535</link>
		<dc:creator>Tesh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 01:00:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eldergame.com/?p=132#comment-11535</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been pondering what Mark Rosewater calls the &quot;power band&quot; of design elements.  In his case, he&#039;s referring to MTG cards, of course, but I think it can apply to levels as well.  A narrow power band, where the top level isn&#039;t hugely different from the bottom level, makes for a more skill-intensive gaming format.  You&#039;ve aptly described the power concerns in the RPG format.

The concept of horizontal vs. vertical expansion is especially interesting.  The &quot;vertical&quot; power band might be fairly narrow, but the horizontal breadth of abilities, specialities and such would give players even greater opportunity to define themselves by their skills and interests.  This is appealing to me as a way to make a game world relatively open, with skill-based PvP, yet have plenty for players to do.

We see some of that with WoW&#039;s talent system, but it seems to me that pushing things even further might make for stronger design.  Guild Wars leans more in that direction, with a narrower power band, but a wider horizontal breadth.  Interestingly, it also gives players more customization options, with skill hunting, dye and heroes.

In the end, the game really does need to focus on what it wants to do, and you&#039;re right, it can never be everything to everyone.  I do tend to think that more MMO innovation will come from the GW lineage rather than the EQ/WoW line, mostly since a narrow power band will tend to appeal more to a casual audience.  Players don&#039;t get too far ahead of friends, or too behind their enemies.

Of course, that&#039;s mainly approaching the DIKU game type.  Puzzle Pirates has a completely different take on things, where &quot;levels&quot; are defined by player skill, and players of any skill can play together and wind up contributing.  Of course higher skill is more effective, but the dynamics are such that the PvE system tunes itself to whatever your current group dynamic is.  It&#039;s a different sort of game, but it&#039;s a very interesting one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been pondering what Mark Rosewater calls the &#8220;power band&#8221; of design elements.  In his case, he&#8217;s referring to MTG cards, of course, but I think it can apply to levels as well.  A narrow power band, where the top level isn&#8217;t hugely different from the bottom level, makes for a more skill-intensive gaming format.  You&#8217;ve aptly described the power concerns in the RPG format.</p>
<p>The concept of horizontal vs. vertical expansion is especially interesting.  The &#8220;vertical&#8221; power band might be fairly narrow, but the horizontal breadth of abilities, specialities and such would give players even greater opportunity to define themselves by their skills and interests.  This is appealing to me as a way to make a game world relatively open, with skill-based PvP, yet have plenty for players to do.</p>
<p>We see some of that with WoW&#8217;s talent system, but it seems to me that pushing things even further might make for stronger design.  Guild Wars leans more in that direction, with a narrower power band, but a wider horizontal breadth.  Interestingly, it also gives players more customization options, with skill hunting, dye and heroes.</p>
<p>In the end, the game really does need to focus on what it wants to do, and you&#8217;re right, it can never be everything to everyone.  I do tend to think that more MMO innovation will come from the GW lineage rather than the EQ/WoW line, mostly since a narrow power band will tend to appeal more to a casual audience.  Players don&#8217;t get too far ahead of friends, or too behind their enemies.</p>
<p>Of course, that&#8217;s mainly approaching the DIKU game type.  Puzzle Pirates has a completely different take on things, where &#8220;levels&#8221; are defined by player skill, and players of any skill can play together and wind up contributing.  Of course higher skill is more effective, but the dynamics are such that the PvE system tunes itself to whatever your current group dynamic is.  It&#8217;s a different sort of game, but it&#8217;s a very interesting one.</p>
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		<title>By: Zubon</title>
		<link>http://www.eldergame.com/2008/10/designing-a-level-system/comment-page-1/#comment-11528</link>
		<dc:creator>Zubon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 22:57:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eldergame.com/?p=132#comment-11528</guid>
		<description>Good post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good post.</p>
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		<title>By: Eugene</title>
		<link>http://www.eldergame.com/2008/10/designing-a-level-system/comment-page-1/#comment-11525</link>
		<dc:creator>Eugene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 22:28:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eldergame.com/?p=132#comment-11525</guid>
		<description>I am seaching for some idea to write in my blog... somehow come to your blog. best of luck. Eugene</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am seaching for some idea to write in my blog&#8230; somehow come to your blog. best of luck. Eugene</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Gowen &#187; Hot Sidebar Action: October 21st</title>
		<link>http://www.eldergame.com/2008/10/designing-a-level-system/comment-page-1/#comment-11510</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Gowen &#187; Hot Sidebar Action: October 21st</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 18:31:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eldergame.com/?p=132#comment-11510</guid>
		<description>[...] Designing a Level System Elder Game has nice write-up on considerations when designing level systems. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Designing a Level System Elder Game has nice write-up on considerations when designing level systems. [...]</p>
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